Annoyed and pissed off, so ranty. Don't expect 'fair.'

[demiurgent]

One of the things I hear from Christian friends -- meant entirely seriously, and I do not deride them for this -- is "hey, [x] doesn't speak for me. That kind of prejudiced garbage has nothing to do with the teachings of Christ." This is particularly something I hear from folks about the organized and intentional persecution of homosexuals.

(And yes, when the Mormon church, as an example, rallies to get something like Prop 8 passed, overwhelmingly from a different state, that there's organized persecution, and one day it will be written about in the same sympathetic tones we write about Jim Crow laws and whipping slaves. But this is not about Mormans at the moment.)

I'm generally willing to accept that. I really am. I know Fred Phelps doesn't speak for anyone but his own deranged cult made up of family members. I know that fewer and fewer evangelical Christians are willing to accept what their 'leaders' declaim in their name.

Yeah, that won't fly this time. Not for Roman Catholics. Because the Pope does speak for them. The Pope by definition speaks for them. So when the Pope uses his End of the Year Christmas Message, celebrating the birth of savior of Mankind (in their view), a time that we have been told unceasingly is a time of love, of peace, of joy, of brotherhood, of hope and of compassion, to directly attack homosexuals and transsexuals, comparing their existence to ecological disaster? He's speaking for the Catholics.

If you're a Catholic? He's speaking for you. He's speaking for you. And repudiation of that message of hate will take more than just disavowing him. You can't disavow the Pope and still take Communion next week. It doesn't work like that.

If you're a believer, and if you're a Catholic, then -- and I mean this sincerely, without irony -- God help you. Good luck with all this, because you're going to need it.

Comments

[snowspinner.livejournal.com]

To be proper, the Pope only absolutely speaks for Catholics when he speaks ex cathedra, which this was not. The last time the Pope spoke infallibly was in 1950.

[goblinpaladin.livejournal.com]

Well said. I edited a link to this in my post about it, because it's a lot closer to what I wish I had the energy to say.

[blackbyrd2.livejournal.com]

Right on.
Oh, and Happy Holidays to you and Weds. :)

[mephron]

I have a PC in a superhero game who is a telekinetic Roman Catholic priest. While he toes the line, he does harbor significantly differing views from the Pope. Stuff like this - which happened in game - has made the Monseigneur very, very uneasy. Not because he's gay, but because he believes that inclusivity is better than exclusivity in the world.

(I'm also using stuff from http://www.wouldjesusdiscriminate.com/scripture/ to allow him to politely and quietly use Scripture to promote his agenda. His assignment is to minister to the super-powered people of Earth, and he follows as best he can, but sometimes His Excellency The Holy Father makes it so difficult...)

Thank you for helping pull this together in my head for this character. I expect it will be interesting the next time he goes to the Vatican...

[elvedril.livejournal.com]

I haven't seen the actual wording of the speech (the Vatican site has it only in German and Italian, neither of which I have seen). However, none of the major news stories I've read (including the BBC one you linked) made the speech sound like it did "directly attack homosexuals and transsexuals, comparing their existence to ecological disaster". Rather, the pope, according to these reports, seems to be saying that, just like ignoring the environment can lead to the destruction of the planet, ignoring the basic truth about man (including that there are two sexes and that these sexes are complementary and can come together to create children) can lead to the destruction of humanity.

This is hardly news to anybody who has followed Catholic dogma in the last 2000 years or so. And in fact the pope is speaking for me when he says it. I too think that there are men and women, that they're different but with equal dignity, and that vague talk about "30 possible genders" and other such nonsense is obscuring the real state of things. This position is based on some philosophical concepts which have a long and stories history and I do not it this makes me a bigot.

I'm not expecting you to agree with the pope's view. You're coming from a very different philosophical viewpoint, and while I think the philosophical basis for that viewpoint is mistaken it's still yours. I would however appreciate it if you didn't link to a story saying one thing with link-text saying something completely different. It's unfair, it's inaccurate, it closes down debate, and it diminishes all of us.

Nowhere do you back up your claim of direct attack or comparison of gays/transgenders to ecological disaster. I argue that you don't do this because the facts don't allow you to. Don't be blinded by your anger, read the text. Authorial intent might be dead, but you still have to stick by the literal reading of the text, and I don't think you've done so in this case.

[starline.livejournal.com]

Honestly, I was raised Catholic (but kinda half-hazardly because I can't define what being a Catholic means) and still go to church whenever I feel like I should (once every few months or so). I like the routine and how I feel when I go to the Catholic church.

If you're a Catholic? He's speaking for you. He's speaking for you. And repudiation of that message of hate will take more than just disavowing him. You can't disavow the Pope and still take Communion next week. It doesn't work like that.
I take communion every time I go, and I've never heard a word of what a Pope has said. I didn't even know you're "supposed" to listen to them. So it works like that for me.

Personally, I think you're supposed to 'judge' people based on their individual actions and not what organization they say they are in. You can tell me that I have to choose to be a Catholic that blindly follows the pope or I'm not Catholic at all. And I'll just look at you funny.

So, I will say, I'm a Roman Catholic and the Pope doesn't not speak for me. Never paid attention to the guy before, not really gonna start to now. Guess I'm just a different kind of Roman Catholic.

I'm still going to say I go to Catholic church, and I advocate for birth control, gay rights, and for doing whatever the fuck makes you happy as long as you aren't hurting someone else. I don't see or feel a conflict in this at all.


If you're a believer, and if you're a Catholic, then -- and I mean this sincerely, without irony -- God help you. Good luck with all this, because you're going to need it.
Don't understand what you mean by this at all. Good luck with what?