Compare and Contrast
Apr. 13th, 2003 06:50 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
demiurgentThe mob remains in Iraq. Some friends of mine feel that the U.S. military has no responsibility to protect museums, hospitals, churches, schools and the like -- the job isn’t done, they feel. Snipers are everywhere.
I don’t agree. I believe if you bring a military force into a city, destroy its police force and the state that controls things, you have a moral responsibility to assume control until such time as local authority can be established. It is the very heart of occupation. If there is good to be found in the toppling of Saddam Hussein -- and despite all of my opposition to this war, I acknowledge the good that can be found there -- it must be allowed to grow, not be crushed by the strong killing the weak and those caught in the panic and chaos of the moment destroying the cultural core of one of the oldest human civilizations on Earth. That must be part of the mission, if there is any morality to be found in the mission.
And yet, in the core of the violence of the mob, unchecked by occupying forces, are opportunities for heroism, of morality, of good to be found in Iraqis who have been oppressed for so long. This is the story of one group of Muslims who defended their neighbors even if it meant their own lives.
Even though those neighbors were Jews.
I am neither Jew nor Muslim, but I know something of Religion. I know that Judaism, Christianity and Islam all grow from a common root -- in mythology the children of Abraham. May the God of Abraham bless these children of Islam who place themselves in harm’s way for the Jews of Iraq. And may the Americans who occupy Baghdad learn from a few unarmed men who stand for order in the wake of chaos.
I don’t agree. I believe if you bring a military force into a city, destroy its police force and the state that controls things, you have a moral responsibility to assume control until such time as local authority can be established. It is the very heart of occupation. If there is good to be found in the toppling of Saddam Hussein -- and despite all of my opposition to this war, I acknowledge the good that can be found there -- it must be allowed to grow, not be crushed by the strong killing the weak and those caught in the panic and chaos of the moment destroying the cultural core of one of the oldest human civilizations on Earth. That must be part of the mission, if there is any morality to be found in the mission.
And yet, in the core of the violence of the mob, unchecked by occupying forces, are opportunities for heroism, of morality, of good to be found in Iraqis who have been oppressed for so long. This is the story of one group of Muslims who defended their neighbors even if it meant their own lives.
Even though those neighbors were Jews.
I am neither Jew nor Muslim, but I know something of Religion. I know that Judaism, Christianity and Islam all grow from a common root -- in mythology the children of Abraham. May the God of Abraham bless these children of Islam who place themselves in harm’s way for the Jews of Iraq. And may the Americans who occupy Baghdad learn from a few unarmed men who stand for order in the wake of chaos.
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(no subject)
Date: 2003-04-13 05:50 pm (UTC)Sigh.
Will Timmins
Date: 2003-04-13 06:34 pm (UTC)Way to totally misconstrue our comments.
For the record, what we said was that the military can't leave small detachements in fixed positions in a live zone. When snipers and suicide bombers wander about, a small force with no back-up will get killed (and, well, has. Look at the various checkpoints).
So, the answer is... well, put a force there _with_ back-up. Great.
Except there are many many necessary places for such forces, particularly in a city of 5 million (plus the rest of the country). You're going to run out of people.
The US military has made a concerted effort to identify holy sites, archaeological digs, and so forth. They've talked to various scholars and scientists, prioritizing. There have been many archaeological digs, for example, that the military has taken some risks at avoiding, despite the Iraqi military having forces/arms within them.
The US military is struggling to get water/food/other aid. They just shipped in judges and police (1200, last I heard). They are trying to stamp down looting.
The hospitals have been looted, as have many other vital buildings, including museums.
Isn't it just possible that they _do_ care, they just lack the power to do everything, all at once?
It's not that the military has no responsibility for those things, it's that they have _many many many_ responsibilities, and have to juggle them in terribly difficult circumstances.
Or, to put it another way, how fast do you expect an occupying force to make everything right? They've been in Baghdad how long?
There have been many Americans over there who have suffered and died for their beliefs, who see the children and suffering people and work doubly hard so that they can have a bright future. I think the lesson isn't theirs to learn.
Re: Will Timmins
Date: 2003-04-13 07:06 pm (UTC)You're making an assumption here. Namely, that the conversation we had is the one I was referencing.
Believe it or not, I do have more than one set of friends. ;)
You can disagree with my post and my feelings of my priorities, but you shouldn't assume that I'm speaking specifically about stuff we said at another time. I've had several conversations on this subject since yesterday.
To address your actual response here -- I expect the military to contain mob rule. I expect that for two reasons: one, because the military is the force that has removed the checks against said mob rule. When you eliminate the state, you have a responsibility to replace it. Second, because mobs moving through the city and looting and sacking things is innately dangerous for our military. The group of people taking out a hospital could also be concealing irregular movements.
The phrase Martial Law derives from a root of Military Control. Military control implies and in fact requires policing the population. Otherwise, your military is being set up for partisan strikes against them. Clearing the streets is actually one of the easier things a military can do, and makes a lot of sense from a military standpoint. Particularly when the civilian leadership is trumpeting the fall of Saddam Hussein and the change of regime.
Do they care? Undoubtedly. I am firmly of the opinion that the American soldiers over there are compassionate human beings who want to do right by the Iraqis and everyone else. But the issue becomes one of military priority. When one takes a hostile city (and explicitly 'liberates' it), one also takes on responsibility. I don't feel that the force's priorities have begun to cover the responsibilities of that liberation. Whether its because the folks in charge don't want the ugly appearance of martial law on the 6 o'clock news or because they woefully undermanned the mission -- something claimed of them many times during the invasion -- we are now in a situation where anarchy is replacing oppression, and the weakest Iraqis, the Iraqi culture and sometimes irreplaceable elements of Iraqi history, culture, infrastructure and the basic means of human life and protection are paying the price.
Does an American soldier in the field need a lesson in heroism? Absolutely not, and I apologize for any such inference. Does Donald Rumsfeld, who rejected multiple requests for much greater troop allocations despite multiple Pentagon and Joint Chiefs recommendations, and who now has too small a force attempting to establish military control of a city need the lesson? Yes. Yes he does.
And are we accountable for those looted hospitals, for the Baghdad Museum, for crimes and horror being perpetuated in a city we have occupied and destroyed civil authority in? Yes we are. Your core argument seems to be that our military has a lot they have to do, and you're right. My core argument is they knew that going in, and if they weren't prepared to hold Baghdad and protect the civilian population, Iraqi infrastructure and Iraqi heritage after displacing the Republican guard, they should have waited until they were.
Re: Will Timmins
Date: 2003-04-14 03:18 am (UTC)Re: 'groups of friends'... Fair enough! :) Then change that to a clarification of what we were talking about. People saying the military has _no_ responsibility... well, I think that's silly.
I'm not convinced that one could have 'enough' people to immediately take control of the city, but I definitely see your point. Personally, I think the true test is where we are in the next few days. If things get under control, I will regard it as a proper victory. If not... then I'll fully agree that the military/administration screwed up.
I'm not absolutely sure that the number of people needed for the mission was clear or completely predictable. I'm not sure it follows that if the military requested more men, that that means they knew they'd _need_ more men.
Ultimately, though, it'll be moot... whether or not it's fair, I don't care. It will either prove to have worked, or it won't. And they'll hang by it.
Re: Will Timmins
Date: 2003-04-14 07:09 am (UTC)My thesis, refined after a couple of days of (very good, in most cases) rebuttal and debate on the issue, is that the military would be in a far better position in regards to their objectives and in the maintenance of law and order in Baghdad had they better manned the mission. As with all Armchair Generalship, I may be wrong but I'm certain.
(Would that have saved the Museum, the Hospitals, et al? Who can say what might have been. But I believe the incidence of rioting and looting would have been much lower had that happened.)
According to BBC World Service, the restoration of Law and Order is a top priority of the military at the moment. Whether something dramatically changed over the weekend or if it always has been but they've been spread too thin I do not know.
None of this, by the by, changes the essential heroism of a few unarmed Muslims who bluffed a mob away from a Jewish neighborhood. Would that lesson were repeated throughout the world, often.
(no subject)
Date: 2003-04-14 07:26 am (UTC)Just to add fuel to the fire, I would point out that the US Army has secured *all* oilfields with security details, and has established a large and obvious presence at the Ministry of Oil headquarters in downtown Baghdad. A clear and obvious message of deterrance to the roving mobs.
The director of the Baghdad Museum asked for just two soldiers to protect the history of civilization.
Two. Fucking. Soldiers.
They never answered him.
Always good to see we've got our priorities straight.
I feel ill.
Andy